Manipal University: Interview

Recently I gave two invited lectures to the students and faculty at Manipal University on "Indian contribution to digital technology" and on "India's Nuclear Programme 1943-2008". At that time I was interviewed by a student of Manipal Institue of Communications. The text published at : http://www.themanipaljournal.com/News/N03208.html follows....

Shivanand KanaviPhoto By: Shaz Mohd

Interview: Shivanand Kanavi
Ajinkya Deshmukh TMJ

Shivanand Kanavi is an intellectual extraordinaire. A theoretical physicist from IIT Kanpur, he pursued higher studies and research from Northeastern University, Boston and IIT Bombay. Till June 2004, he was the Executive Editor of Business India magazine. The same year he received the Madhu Valluri Award for IT Journalism. He is now the Vice President, Special Projects at Tata Consultancy Services. He occasionally writes for Business India and has authored the book ‘Sand to Silicon: the amazing story of digital technology’. He was in Manipal as a guest lecturer on ‘India’s contribution to technology’ and ‘India’s Nuclear Programme’.

Q: In your book and the lectures you gave, you underscored India’s contribution to the IT industry. Do you think India’s role is downplayed in the mainstream media?

A: India’s success story in the IT business on shores and in the Silicon Valley is well known and receives ample coverage. It is India’s technical and research contribution to IT that is undermined. In fact, ‘Sand to Silicon’ was the first book to document this momentous contribution, prior to which there was no credible literature on the subject.

Q: But, we see most research papers coming out of the West, where universities have lab establishments that encourage ingenious research. The Indian education system is not very research oriented; neither do we have high percentage of budgetary allocations for R&D.

A: Even in the West, students write very few research papers. It is usually seasoned specialists in the field, young graduates or post-doctoral research scholars who produce papers. Also, unless one requires specialized equipment for experimental work in IT, I don’t think there is a problem of money. For example, in 2002 there was groundbreaking research in IIT Kanpur by Chair Professor, Department of Computer Science and Engineering, Manindra Agarwal and two undergrad students. They cracked a problem that had evaded solution for over 300 years! IT and communication research is very mathematical.

Q: The infamous red tape in India in not conducive to business houses. The Tata-Singur row and LN Mittal preferring foreign shores prove…

A: Traditional businesses – yes. Business in India is a challenge. But, it has done well nevertheless; overcoming all odds and being profitable. The Indian business environment gives some of the best returns in the world. Further, in modern businesses in the knowledge economy there aren’t many obstacles. The main hurdle in services like IT and telecom applications is capital and India has its breed of venture capitalists ready to invest in sensible business ideas. The number of entrepreneurs in India is its chief strength when compared with a China or an America.

Q: Coming to the biggest deal today: if nuclear energy is crucial to India’s energy security, what do you say about the US getting cold feet just as the NSG stage of negotiations came – a strategic U-turn?

A: The US and other big powers made certain calculations by which they had to include India in the global system of N-trade sans any restrictions. However, the US has its way of taking along many countries in its strategic flow and then taking a complete 180 ̊ turn, leaving many countries stranded. The NSG operates by consensus, not voting. Domestic political situations in countries like Austria and New Zealand (upcoming elections) compel them to oppose the waiver lest they be termed US puppets. Otherwise, India is garnering worldwide support with all the big powers. Things will straighten out in a while. The NSG was always going to be a problem.

Q: You span theoretical physics, nuclear geopolitics, economics, journalism, IT and are also involved with the publication Ghadar Jari Hai… How does this come about?

A: I have a natural curiosity to understand the society around me – economy, philosophy, science, history. And then comes the need to communicate this understanding to others. It is only out of intellectual curiosity and I never started out to make a career in these fields, but the opportunities today are vast. Educational qualifications don’t matter much as long as one makes an honest effort at tackling the challenge at hand.Ghadar is a quarterly magazine published from Delhi, an attempt by intellectual activists to view our pre-colonial and colonial history with a fresh set of eyes and attitudes. The colonial era left us with an inferiority complex because the British painted all of our pre-colonial history black. As a people we have to face this outlook tainted by Euro centrism. It calls for a movement to assess each of our contemporary problems on its own merit, and harmonise diverse faiths, opinions and political ideologies – something our 5,000 year old civilization has long since been capable of.

Q: Finally, what is next in store for you?

A: Career wise, I do not know. But, I am writing a book on the history of TCS and another one on Indian role in atomic physics. A more ambitious project would be a book that I am planning to write on the Bhakti Movement in India. The 800 years of history will take another four or five years of research to turn into a book.I’ve also wanted to write a book on the philosophy behind quantum physics for the past 25-30 years. Let’s see when I can get time for that.

Indian Nuclear Industry, 1993

Business India, December 6-19, 1993

The nuclear fallout

With the nuclear power programme facing a serious resource crunch, industries will have to explore new options for using their nuclear-related skills

Shivanand Kanavi

When we talk of nuclear power we talk about its economic viability, environmental hazards, fears of radiation leakage, waste disposal, or even problems regarding closing down the reactor after its useful life. But the other spin-offs to our economy - in terms of scientific-technical manpower, engineering skills and capacities, not to talk about the bottom lines and business turnovers - have not been studied in any detail.

These spin-offs have been varied. Since the 1960s, when India started generating electricity using nuclear power, a host of industries have sprung up in heavy engineering, fabrication, and construction. All these owe their entire development of skills, quality consciousness, confidence to tackle bigger and bigger problems (in size as well as in technological levels), to their participation in the indigenous nuclear power programme.
Anyone who does not know the abysmal condition of our laboratories and universities in the 1940s, and even our engineering industry in the 1960s and early 1970s, cannot easily appreciate the spin offs that have occurred due to the nuclear programme. M.S. Krishnamurthy, joint general manager, of the engineering giant, Larsen and Toubro, who has been associated with the nuclear program for over 25 years, says, "Without the push given by the nuclear power programme we would not be able to do what we are capable of doing today. In the pre-nuclear era, we used to make some equipment for dairies and small cement plants, that weighed a couple of tones. Today, we have moved into the third generation of heavier precision engineering at Hazira that can fabricate components weighing up to 450 tonnes."

This technological advantage works out in other areas as well. For P.J. Bhounsule, sales development manager, L&T (an IIT graduate who has worked on nuclear projects for nearly two decades), the engineering challenges they encountered while catering to their nuclear commitment were of the toughest variety. "One of the toughest assignments we faced was the welding of the two halves of the half-a-metre thick steel disk, that was the deck plate of the Dhruva reactor," says Bhounsule. "The weld had to be so perfect that even the tiny atoms of helium couldn't leak through. Simple heating of the two lips in the joint, led to unequal expansion along the diameter and circumference of the half disks, leading to gaps between the lips of the joint. We had not calculated the different heat sink characteristics. This led us to use computer simulation for the first time."

An analysis of the results revealed that the problem could be solved if the disks were thermally insulated and heat provided at twenty-five distributed points all over. "Finally, we machined channels into the lips so that they could lock into each other and after careful deep welding from both sides of the disk, we got the defect-free weld," claims Bhounsule proudly.

This precision and problem-solving capacity that they have acquired is what all the industries associated with nuclear technology praise. T.S. Sakethan, general manager.
special products division, Walchandnagar Industries (WIL), proudly shows his hi-¬tech dust-free shop floor, ingeniously assembled right in the midst of the cranes and fork lifts. He points out a welder meticulously welding the tubes to a tube sheet in a heavy water heat exchanger. The Welds have to be totally defect free," he says. "Normal methods of non-destructive testing (NDT) like sonography, radiography, dye penetration, and magnetic particle patterns cannot be used here, so we do statistical quality analysis. The welder has to be trained in the technique for months together and pass all sorts of tests."
But even this is not enough. The welder's skill is constantly checked out, since there is little or no room for error. "Every day before he starts work, he has to weld a few samples, which are then physically sawed off and tested for defects," says Sakethan. "Only when the samples show zero defect is he allowed to touch the job that day." This may sound unnecessarily time consuming but with the risks of nuclear leaks taking precedence over all else, it's a necessary precaution.

One corollary to this kind of nit-pickety precision is that customers of nuclear manufacturers are positive that they will get quality that's of the best kind. P.J. Bhounsule of L&T says, "The philosophy of quality control had to be changed from post manufacture checks to planned quality assurance, systematic definition of manufacturing procedures and documentation. All these have helped us obtain authorisation to use various quality stamps of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers and the ISO 9001 certification. "

M.L. Mitra, director, environment and public awareness, Nuclear Power Corporation, who was deeply involved in the handholding operations in the early years, recalls, "We had to convince many in the industry that quality does not mean higher cost but lower project cost."

As the confidence in their technical abilities and quality grew, the industries were able to take on more challenging tasks. Currently, nuclear manufacture involves the standardised design of the 235 MW reactor, the consolidation of infrastructure and manufacture using the convoy system, cutting project time, the design and manufacture of 500 MW reactors for Tarapur III and IV and Rajasthan III and IV. The industries have also built components for the heavy water projects and the Fast Breeder Test Reactor. Now, the pool-type Prototype Fast Breeder Reactor to generate 500 MW, using liquid sodium, has been designed and the industry will participate in its fabrication as well.

Perhaps the best spin-offs to these nuclear-affiliated industries have been in terms of turnover. L&T alone has done Rs.312 crore of nuclear work. Bharat Heavy Electricals, which has gained the maximum benefit, has made over Rs.800 crore. Most of the business is pure profit as the industry has to pay only for labour costs, as the raw materials are provided by the DAE and the NPC.

Besides its contribution to corporate bottom-lines (see table for select data), what have been the spin-offs in terms of new business? "With our expertise, if not on a turnkey basis, at least as critical component manufacturers, we can get contracts from multinationals who want to set up industries in India," says T.V. Rudrappa, general manager, quality assurance, WIL.

Earnings from the Nuclear Programme

1975-80 1980-87 1987-95 Total in Rs crore
BHEL 15 154 640 804
HEC - 42 128 170
ECIL - 70 160 230
L&T 5 35 272 312
KSB - 7 112 119
Mukand 2.5 10.5 24 37
BHPV - - 27 27
BPCL - 3.5 24 27.5
WIL - - 20 20
Mather & Platt - - 20 2020


R.D. Hariani, technical director, GR Engineering, concurs, "Association with the Nuclear Power Corporation has helped us indirectly in getting jobs in other sectors as the quality has been upgraded in an overall sense." Krishan Kumar, general manager of the public sector giant, Bharat Heavy Electricals, is equally upbeat regarding spin-offs, "BHEL has gained considerably technologically through its association with nuclear power. Now, we are in a position to execute the conventional side of the nuclear power plant on a turnkey basis." After the recent fire in the generator in Narora I the turbine generator that was based on GE design is also being redesigned for Indian conditions by BHEL and NPC.

With these design modifications Indian Nuclear-related industries have finally come into their own. They have moved from their total dependence on foreign designs, to making design changes, to finally conceptualising and manufacturing their own designs. K.R. Balakrishnan, general manager, control panels, GEC Alsthom India. Ltd, who have supplied' over Rs.15 crore worth of control protection equipment and switch gear to all the reactors, says unequivocally that association with NPC projects has helped them acquire experience in designing and manufacturing equipment suitable for an earthquake-prone environment. K.K. Sinha, chairman and managing director, Mishra Dhatu Nigam (Midhani), a PSU set up to develop super alloys, is proud that hundreds of tonnes of very special steel called grade 403 (which is a medium carbon steel but whose composition is controlled within a very narrow range) were produced by Midhani. Similarly, another copper niobium special steel, called 17-4 PH grade, was also developed and produced by Midhani for the nuclear reactor components using electro slag refining and vacuum arc furnaces. Not many countries in the world have these capabilities, says Sinha proudly.

Where to, from here? With the resource crunch threatening India's own nuclear programme options, the logical next step would have been to export the technology. But the government has given very little thought to going into the global nuclear business, although Japan and South Korea are feverishly building nuclear power stations. Besides this, there may be a number of developing countries that will go in for the smaller 235 MW PHWR if the fuel supply can be arranged. Indian expertise in building research reactors had been sought world wide. but India did not pursue it.

The real test of our nuclear industry will come in delivering systems and components on schedule for international clients. And in the ultimate analysis, the industry will be able to use the skills it has acquired in other fields. For although the nuclear industry is facing a serious resource crunch, the resourceful among them will turn this adversity into opportunity.

Column: Sikh Pogrom

Silence over a pogrom
Shivanand Kanavi
Business & Political Observer- November 12,1992

The hanging of Sukha and Jinda, the two convicted for assassinating the Army chief General A S Vaidya in his retirement in Pune, was generally welcomed by people and the press, but some sections of society, however, opposed it. On the face of it, it looked bizarre that anybody in his right senses could oppose the hanging of convicted assassins but various groups in Punjab, including various Akali factions, called a bandh in protest. An even more bizarre sounding news was the bhog ceremony held in the Golden Temple complex for these two. Here the issue is not the success or failure of the bandh or how many attended the bhog ceremony. The government and the organisers will obviously have vastly differing estimates, but the rationale for such views. Or was there no rationale but only fear of terrorists' guns that make people express their opposition to the hanging? I have come to the conclusion that there is a rationale though the Akalis might appear as a caricature of such a rationale.

Two events have had a devastating effect in Punjab in the recent past. One was the army attack on Golden Temple and the other was the pogrom carried out against the Sikhs in 1984 after Mrs Gandhi's assassination. The attack and the damage to Akal Takht enraged many who were in no sense Khalistani terrorists and many youth in Punjab took it upon themselves to avenge it. The method of conspiracies and terrorism to oppose a government's policy, however abhorrent the policy may be, is questionable in principle and has had no practical benefit for the Sikhs. In fact, the escalating violence between the state and the militants, each justifying the other, has led to the hen and the egg syndrome, while the ordinary people of Punjab have suffered enormously in the crossfire. But if Udham Singh, who took great pains to search General Dyer out in imperial Britain and killed him as retribution for Jalianwalabagh, or Bhagat Singh and Chandrashekhar Azad who killed British officials and looted treasury, or Maharashtra's Vasudev Balwant Phadke and Chaphekar brothers who killed members of colonial administration or tried to raise armed rebellion among the tribal Ramoshis, could be national heroes for us, then will not avengers of injustices be Shahids for those who accuse the central government of oppressive, unjust and near-colonial attitude in dealing with the Sikhs or with Punjab? It is a disturbing question even if you don't agree with the militants in Punjab.

To them the argument given by the court that the General was just doing his duty does not hold much attraction since they say the same justification was oft repeated in the Nuremberg trial of Nazis for war crimes. Viewed thus, the bhog ceremony does not appear all that bizarre.

The issue of the hurried hanging of Sukha and Jinda too appears suspect not in itself but viewed in the background of the machinery of justice that has ground to a halt as far as the '84 pogrom of the Sikhs in Delhi and other places is concerned. Two thousand seven hundred and thirty three Sikhs were killed in cold blood (according to official figures) in 72 hours. That is roughly one person stabbed to death or burnt alive every one and a half minute in the national capital. The orgy went on for three days. What happened to our trigger-happy paramilitary and armed forces or the police? No one could claim that the place (Delhi) was remote and law enforcement agencies could not reach there in time. In fact, Delhi those days -much before these events- resembled an army camp with check posts and carbined troops at each corner - a shocking scene for a Bombayite like me. What has happened to the perpetrators of these crimes? Well, a lot. The then commissioner of police started a departmental enquiry a day after the pogrom: It was abandoned three weeks later. The Ved Marwah committee was set up instead. It too was abandoned when some of the accused police officers moved the court. Then came the Justice Ranganath Mishra commission which made a mockery of justice, by rejecting, without giving any reasons, 2,800 affidavits of victims and accepting only 128. Its proceedings were held in camera and the press was forbidden. The report submitted by the commission in 1986 even had a section on affidavits against the victims of the riots! Committees followed commissions, 11 in all - Ahooja committee, Jain Banerjee commission, Kusum Lata Mittal commission, Justice Potti and Rosha committee, etc. The net result has been zero.

Either thousands of people who witnessed the massacre or were victims of it and gave coherent accounts of it have committed a mass conspiracy to lie, or some very important people should be standing trial for mass murder.

In the midst of all this has a come a most damaging leak by one of the police officers accused of participating in the riots. Chandra Prakash, who was later promoted as Deputy Inspector General in Arunachal Pradesh, has said in a leaked memorandum to the home ministry that the decision not to quell the rioting by imposing curfew or calling the army was taken at a secret meeting at the Prime Minister's residence. This has damned two prime ministers. The late Mr Rajiv Gandhi and the present one. Mr P. V. Naraslmha Rao was then the home minister and according to the memo attended the said meeting.

The septugenarian Mr Rao, the darling of the press as manager of contradictions par excellence, the one who saved India from chaos and economic bankruptcy, the one who tamed the BJP, the one whose pravachanas er .. speeches over-flow with ancient wisdom, the one who speaks endlessly on human rights, etc, was party to the blot on the conscience of all Indians! So far there has been no refutation from the home ministry or the PMO about the leak.

With all this muck and confusion and literally skeletons up the closets of the VIPs, it does not appear so mindless after all, that some people consider Satwant Singh and Beant Singh and Sukha and Jinda as martyrs.

I don't. No doubt they are assassins.

But amidst the extremities, where is the silent majority? And why is it silent?

Interview: Vijay Times-Sand to Silicon, Dec 2003

‘Even practitioners cannot explain the fundamentals’
Interview: Vijay Times, Dec 2003

Even as the country learns more about ‘India Shining’, Shivanand Kanavi’s book, Sand to Silicon, traces the Evolution of digital technology in India in a global context. Better known as the Executive Editor of Business India, the Mumbai-based graduate of IIT-Kanpur spoke to Vijay Times, Bangalore earlier this week:

Isn’t it apt that the release of Sand to Silicon Coincides with the Central Government’s ‘India Shining’ campaign?

Obviously, it is just a coincidence. The work for the book began two years ago in terms of research. If you ask me, the Government should also be publicising issues backed by solid research rather than mere sentiments.

How Accurate is the ‘India Shining” campaign? Are there really areas in the economy to feel good about?
‘Feel good’ is a relative term. It is often used when things haven’t been good over a period of time. Indians tend to look for something to celebrate- be it a cricket match or the economy.
There are still large sections of the economy that have not been touched. Analysts are cautioning the Government against this, especially when it comes to the rural and sub-urban parts of the country. The campaign must correspond with reality.

Is Sand to Silicon aimed at the reader who is a specialist, engineer or the layman?
Electrical engineering isn’t my subject. When I tried to understand it by talking to experts, I could see that even practitioners were unable to explain the fundamentals.
I have tried to address a broad segment- anybody conversant in technology or who is interested in knowing more about it. I had to study the fundamentals, interview many people. The historical work: to gather the names of Indians who have done seminal work in technology..

So, between the graduate from Kanpur and the journalist in you, who was more dominant while working on the book?
(Laughs) My worry was always my reader. My publisher and acknowledged mentor, Ashok Advani, always said, ‘you should write in such a way that even your mother-in-law understands it’. After I collected the material, it had to be translated to common man’s terms. So perhaps, the journalist was more dominant.

Interview Lal Singh

Peepul ke Neeche - Conversations

Communism and India's heritage

It is rare that a political party in India takes a serious attitude towards investigating Indian history, philosophy, culture and statecraft. Empty posturing, demagogy and rousing passions for narrow vote-bank politics is more the order of the day. Then there are those who flaunt their modernity by championing cosmopolitanism, Eurocentrism and labeling any serious attitude towards India’s heritage of thought material as revivalism and even communalism. However, CGPI is one political party that has consistently taken a serious investigative attitude towards all these questions for over a quarter century. We are pleased to bring to you a conversation between Shivanand Kanavi, a writer and Com Lal Singh, General Secretary of Communist Ghadar Party of India, in this section of Peepul ke Neeche.

Shivanand: Welcome to Peepul ke Neeche. I am impressed by the range of issues regarding Indian philosophy, political theory and history that have been raised by you in several publications of CGPI and would like to discuss some of them today.
Lal Singh: It is my pleasure to participate in this conversation. I have also been reading the magazine and appreciate this effort in trying to build a platform for serious discussion in a non partisan way, keeping out all prejudice and labeling.
Shivanand: The very name of your organization is intriguing. What is the connection between Ghadar and communism?
Lal Singh: The Great Ghadar of 1857, besides being the biggest war of the 19th century world, also represented all that was best in India’s anti-colonial and revolutionary struggles. Long past those tumultuous years, it continued to inspire patriots and revolutionaries in India. In fact, the founding fathers of Hindustani Ghadar Party, formed in 1913 in North America, which played an important role in India’s struggle against British Colonialism explicitly drew inspiration from the Ghadar of 1857. I believe that it is important for a communist party to takes the best revolutionary traditions of its own people and from the people of rest of the world and integrate them with the struggle to establish the rule of workers and peasants.
Shivanand: Frequently in your literature, I have seen an estimation of Bhakti movement as a radical democratic movement. Can you explain that? As far as I know no other communist group has done a serious analysis of Bhakti movement, much less characterizing it as revolutionary.
Lal Singh: Bhakti Lehar was very broad and deep. We see it coming up repeatedly for almost 800 years in different parts of the country at different times. It started around the 11th century in Tamil Nadu and spread to Karnataka, Maharashtra, Kashmir, the Gangetic plain, Andhra Pradesh, Orissa, Bengal, Assam, Gujarat, Rajasthan, Punjab and other places. It captured the imagination of millions of people in literally the whole of India.
No doubt, it had a religious shell. After all, the stated goal of Bhaktas was direct communion with a personal deity without any intermediaries. Through this they posited a spiritual democracy. They recognized no divisions among humanity based on caste, profession, social status or gender. This immediately came into conflict with the Brahmanical system, the caste hierarchy and the priests.
The struggle was tortuous and many of them suffered at the hands of orthodoxy and even the state. But they stood their ground with great courage of conviction and became the voice of working people. They propounded their views in simple songs in people’s bhasha be it Tamil, Kannada, Kashmiri, Marathi, Awadhi, Punjabi, Bengali, Oriya, or Telugu. Till then all serious philosophical discussion was carried out in Sanskrit, Pali or Prakrit, with which very few people were conversant. The Bhakti Lehar led to the flourishing of literature in these bhashas. In fact, it played a major role in the development of various nationalities in India.
Bhaktas upheld the dignity of labour. Prominent activists of this movement came from all castes, creeds and professions. There were weavers, dhobis, cobblers, farmers, blacksmiths, gold smiths, traders, oilers, gardeners, accountants, Brahmins, and even some from the ruling circles. Moreover, a large number of Bhakti poets were women, who found liberation in this peer group after being considered second-class citizens and a source of “pollution” in the Brahmanical system. Here they shared their experiences with other bhaktas on an equal and honourable footing. The performing arts like music and dance too flourished as they were considered spiritual offerings.
According to the orthodox priests, the caste and gender divisions were ordained by a divine power. However, Bhaktas believed in a sensual and experiential philosophy and did not recognize any authority of the scriptures over the experiential. In fact, they said ‘the scriptures, which divide the people, are man made and have nothing to do with God.’ At one stroke, the foundation of a divinely ordained caste system and discrimination based on that was questioned seriously. In short, they played a profoundly revolutionary democratic role and were a part of the great secularization movement in India.
Shivanand: What about the Sufis?
Lal Singh: Sufis too brought similar values and since both the trends represented a spiritual quest and revolt against the rigidly divided social system, they were able to learn a lot from each other. In fact identifying them as Hindu and Muslim would be false because they recognized no such identities. For them everyone was a seeker. Thus, the two trends influenced each other in several places like Punjab, Kashmir and Karnataka. For example, Guru Nanak went to Kashi to converse with knowledgeable pundits and to Baghdad to discuss with the Sufis. He acknowledged the wisdom of Namdev from Maharashtra and Baba Farid from Afghanistan.
The point is not to look at everything in Indian philosophy and tradition with categories of idealism and materialism in a mechanical way. Bhaktas and Sufis did not just understand the world but actually strived to change it for the better.
Shivanand: You have time and again stressed the need to develop Indian theory, can you explain that?
Lal Singh: First, let us look at the system that we have inherited from British colonialism. It has further evolved post independence. Politically we have a system that is parliamentary, multi party democracy with election of representatives held every few years. This system was brought in by the British and embraced by the Indian ruling classes to act as a superstructure in the form of a highly centralized and repressive state machinery. The representative form of democracy lets a few chosen parties who support this system to enter the electoral arena and then get some among them elected through a process that reduces ordinary working people to a marginal role. Once elected these representatives are not accountable to anyone except their party high command. Their groupings then vie to be the best managers of the status quo as ruling and opposition parties or coalitions. Despite its total failure to empower the people through enabling direct democracy, many political parties have not only proudly become a part of the process but have also given periodic calls that people should defend this system at all costs! Why should we defend a disempowering system developed in Westminster, based on political theories of English monarchs and later the English bourgeoisie? Our civilization claims a heritage of thousands of years. Has it not produced any political theory that needs to be studied in order to deal with the problem of empowering the people today?
Similarly, capitalism transplanted by colonial administrators is being taken to new heights in the last sixty years, despite the proven fact that it enriches a tiny minority at the cost of impoverishing hundreds of millions. In terms of economic theory, Indian rulers parrot the Nehruvian mixed economy or the trickle down theory or European social democratic slogans like ‘capitalism with a human face’ or ‘inclusive growth’, which are all different versions of the same system that has not served the aspirations of Indian people. Has Indian civilization not produced any economic theory, which can be provided with modern content to serve the people? Unless, as Marx said, in the preface to the Critique of Political Economy, “we settle accounts with our erstwhile philosophical conscience”, how can we move forward to elaborate a modern theory that serves the aspirations of Indian people? These are cardinal questions facing Indian communists and all those seeking solutions to the problems facing our people today. However, in this endeavour to examine our heritage of Indian thought material, we face the other legacy of colonialism, viz. Eurocentrism, as a major obstacle.
Shivanand: Yes, I was going to ask that next. You have been repeatedly writing against the influence of Orientalism and the effect of Eurocentrism on Indian intelligentsia. Isn’t that strange for a party that professes Marxism and Leninism, which are both European in origin?
Lal Singh: Let me take up the second part of your question first. The philosophy of Marxism-Leninism is dialectical materialism. There is nothing European about that. You will find it profoundly well articulated in various ways in Indian darshan as well. It is reflected in the way the relations between man and nature and between man and man have been dealt with in Indian philosophy. Take the word darshan itself, which relates to things and phenomena revealing themselves to the seeker. Darshan posits the objectivity of nature and its phenomena. Or, take for example the concept of awagaman, which is a profound statement of matter in motion, of things and phenomena constantly coming into being and passing away and not being static. Further, take the concept of zero. Besides its application in number theory and mathematics, it represents a sandhi, where opposites coexist and cancel each other, much like the twilight zone where light and darkness coexist and cancel each other. In fact at sandhi you cannot say which way situation will turn, towards darkness or light. Unfortunately darshan has been reduced by Eurocentrics to religious spiritualism and divine revelation.
Macaulay and a host of Indologists and Orientalists, who acted as the ideological spearhead of colonialism, did not understand or want to understand the content or context of Indian darshan. They had the agenda of proving to the ‘natives’ that their salvation lies in embracing English liberalism, Calvinism, agnosticism, Utilitarianism and consider being ruled by the British as a privilege. This required breaking the moral and ideological fibre of the Indians. Hence they depicted every aspect of Indian culture and philosophy as otherworldly at best, and as crass superstition and “mumbo jumbo” at worst. They also painted pre-British Indian society in colours that could only be abhorred by a modern man. They implemented this systematically through their commentaries, even translations and of course the education system. Generations of Indian intellectuals became victims of this agenda. We can understand the strategy and tactics of colonial marauders, but sixty years on, do we see serious questioning of Eurocentrism? A majority of political parties are busy glorifying and defending the colonial legacy in the form of the Indian state, parliamentary representative democracy, capitalism and a myriad of divisions based on caste and faith, which were institutionalized by the colonial state. Thus, we cannot settle accounts with our ancient heritage without settling accounts with the colonial legacy.
Shivanand: There are several people, who are speaking against Eurocentrism with dubious intentions.
Lal Singh: Rediscovery of Indian philosophy and theory by Indian minds, and its elaboration in forms suitable to the present day needs, would be widely welcomed by masses of Indian people. It will help in taking the struggle of workers and peasants forward, to establish their own rule. In such a popular endeavour there would be elements who might flaunt the banner of struggle against Eurocentrism to preserve the status quo, or to arouse sectarian passions or justify the emergence of India as a big power. But isn’t that the fate of everything which can mobilize the spirit of people for change? Take banners of socialism, revolution, and people’s rule. Have they not been used for all kinds of dubious activities against the interests of people? So I do not think we should be worried if some people have dubious intentions in this struggle against Eurocentrism. The main thing is to examine our own history, philosophy, literature, culture, aesthetics, criticism, traditions and practices with fresh eyes. Eyes which are not Eurocentric. We might understand many things, we might approve of some of them and find them useful for solving today’s problems. We might disapprove of some. It will involve rejection of Macaulayan prejudices towards everything Indian and looking towards Europe for all enlightenment. The scope of this project is vast. While our party has made its intentions clear and is doing its bit, the project needs the energies of a vast number of people with varied expertise. On top of it there is the added factor of India having a strong oral tradition. The knowledge and wisdom contained in our people’s oral traditions are not to be found in any library or erudite tome but in the field of the mass movement.
This project of developing Indian theory will necessarily involve scholars with a fresh set of eyes and millions of ordinary people and activists summing up their historical experience objectively in the mass movement. Though it appears daunting, it is an exciting project and that too in an exciting period where the capitalist system has totally failed and the alternative is waiting to be elaborated after summing up the experiences of socialism in the 20th century.
Shivanand: You have made a difference in some of your literature between secularism and the movement for secularization. You do not seem to find secularism a virtue of Indian state at all. Secularism has become a label that every progressive loves to sport, but you see problems with it. Can you explain?
Lal Singh: The movement for secularization in Europe was revolutionary and it helped the European bourgeoisie in establishing their rule by overthrowing the feudal system, of which the Church was a big part. But soon they found that the working masses, whose support they needed to carry out the revolutions, were getting too radicalized. The European bourgeoisie then dropped the revolutionary content of the movement for secularization. They converted it into formal secularism on the one hand and pacts with religious clergy on the other. An example of this formal secularism is what the French are discussing today, about turbans and head scarves, or the agnosticism of English bourgeoisie, and their idea of “not taking sides”
In India the Bhakti lehar was part of the movement for secularization. It not only called for the liberation of the masses of people from the clutches of cunning priests and meaningless rituals but also from discrimination based on caste, community and gender. Indian tradition has always upheld the right to conscience as inviolable.
The Indian bourgeoisie has followed in the footsteps of the British colonialists. The communal foundations of the State have been retained, based on defining India as consisting of a Hindu majority and a Muslim and other religious minorities. The notion has been perpetuated that Indian people are communal while the State is an instrument to maintain communal harmony. This is the opposite of the truth. It is understandable that the major parties of the Indian bourgeoisie, such as the BJP and the Congress Party, continue to follow the colonial methods and the colonial outlook. What is not understandable and not at all acceptable is that some who call themselves communists and Marxists should also be following the agenda set by the British colonial bourgeoisie!
In our opinion the notion that the Indian State has ‘secular foundations’ acts as a roadblock to the struggle of the working class and oppressed masses to end communalism and all forms of medievalism, including the caste system. It fosters the harmful illusion that we can rely on the present day Indian State for achieving these objectives.
Shivanand: It has been a highly thought provoking conversation. We will continue this in the future as well. Thank you.
(This interview appeared in the Ghadar Jari Hai -- The Revolt Continues, Vol II, No. 2 April-June 2008)